By: staniel [2001-09-28]

I Hate George Bernard Shaw

My precious antique words! Aww, look what ya done to them!

I hate George Bernard Shaw, not for his socialism, to which I'm fairly indifferent, but for the ghoti example. I recently read this article. For the lazy, I shall summarize: ghoti cannot spell fish, because even though gh makes an f sound sometimes, it never does so at the beginning of a word. The same treatment is applied to the ti at the end.

While I appreciate any attack on Shavian lunacy, this only scratched the surface, for you see, dear reader, gh doesn't really sound like f.

It annoys me that a man who wrote a play with variant pronunciations as a plot device could not realize that only people with degenerate accents are capable of ending "tough" and "fluff" with exactly the same sounds. To form an f sound, the lips make much closer contact than with the Scottish-derived soft gh. Same with the ti; the position of the tongue against the back of the top row of teeth is different than with sh.

Try it sometime. Unless you have split your tongue to make your Serpentor cosplay sessions more intense, it should work. Say the example words provided by my literary foe, and pay attention to what goes on inside your mouth. Subtle complexity and confusing laws from bygone days are what make English great, and I'm glad nobody (at least, nobody who mattered) ever took the old hack seriously enough to implement his plan for homogenization.

It doesn't help to calm my raging ire that Shaw fans have a tendency to listen to Digable Planets and wear Birkenstocks with socks.

I sometimes fear that the trend toward "one word, one definition" will do to vocabulary what Shaw wanted to do to pronunciation. Sexual harassment, child molestation, and dozens of other phrases have become buzzwords, and words that formerly had multiple definitions have now acquired implied connotations. As far as most people know or care, harassment is always sexual.

On an unrelated note, I hate that there is a crotchety blind man running the snack bar in the basement of the county courthouse. Not that I begrudge the guy his living; hell, it's even respectable, Lord knows I don't have that kind of work ethic. If I had a handicap that could bring in government money, I wouldn't be working. What bothers me is that my life is making references to Night Court, and that I wasted enough of my preteen years watching Night Court to get it.
word play [2001-09-28 19:25:42] Lou Duchez
There are at least 100,000 words in the English language. IMHO, if the best you can do with them is come up with alternate spellings, try again.

As to different sounds, it's the difference between phonetics and phonemics. Phonetics is a matter of the sounds themselves, and phonemics is about how the sounds are grouped within a language. For example, "wade" and "weighed" are pronounced slightly differently, and most English speakers can tell the two apart; but phonemically speaking, they both use the long-a vowel sound.
Phonetics [2001-09-29 14:37:52] Just Shambling By
Are you sure about this difference between the pronounciations of 'gh' and 'f'? My own stint as a student of phonetics was brief, but I don't remember learning of a difference between the two. Furthermore, my big gay book of English, "The Oxford Companion to the English Language" (1992) says "(2) It [gh] is pronounced /f/ in a few words such as cough, enough, laugh..." And /f/ is a great way to start the word "fish," even if it is not as good of a way to end "fluff," which was your example (which ends in /ff/, I believe)

Also, while I'm rambling, on the topic of sexual harassment - well, languages change. If "harassment" comes to be synonymous with the sexual variety of said conduct, which I highly doubt it will, then our vocabulary will probably change to allow some other word to mean what "harassment" of the general variety means today. Archaic rules and systems are great, but in my opinion, things get embarassing if one tries to enforce them quixotically (or fulminate futilely) rather than just masturbate quietly over their intricacy, as is mete and proper.

By the way - what, exactly, are degenerate accents?
Phonemics [2001-09-29 16:47:48] Just Shambling By
Ignore most of the above. I didn't quite understand Mr. Douchez' comment on the nature of phonemics, (still don't, in fact) but it managed to stir me to do a little research on phonemics, which brought the whole issue of allophones and such back to my conscious mind, from whatever subconscious pit it'd been festering in. So, though I can't say for sure that 'gh' and 'f' as in fish are always phonemically different, I admit that my post about the phonetic difference was rather irrelevant.
Shamble on. [2001-09-29 23:01:19] staniel
I now need an Oxford manual of linguistics. I don't really think the pronunciation guides in dictionaries or the Companion are intended for research this specific.
Hooray for the Space Ape!! [2001-09-30 01:01:16] Lou Duchez
I was unclear. Phonetics is a matter of the actual sounds, as measurable on an oscilloscope and subject to mathematical analysis. Phonemics is a matter of the sounds that make up a language, and is reflected in pronunciation guides; it tends to be looser than phonetics.

Example 1 of phonemes: the German language has at least three approved ways of making an "R" sound: roll the tip of the tongue, roll the back of the tongue, or just don't roll nothing. Phonetically they are quite different sounds, but they are all part of the same phoneme in German, the "R" phoneme. There are circumstances where one kind of rolling would be more appropriate than others, but even if you mix 'em up, nobody will be confused, and you run no risk of inadvertantly saying a different word. Same phoneme, different sounds.

Example 2 of phonemes: the English language has a phoneme for "J", but German does not. The German language just doesn't have any built-in "J" sound, even though the German people are entirely capable of pronouncing it. In those cases where they need to make the sound, they make the clever substitution "Dsch", for example "Dschungel" for "jungle". To them it's two phonemes, that's just how their language is built.

I brought this up in reference to the "sh" vs. "ti" Shavian thing. Different sounds, yes, but the same phoneme. Which doesn't change the fact that "ghoti" is a retarded way to spell "fish". (Though at this moment, I'm taken with the notion of how some people put a "Jesus ghoti" on their car ...)
Degeneracy. [2001-09-30 09:43:13] staniel
A degenerate accent, if you ask me, is one so strong that the speaker lacks the ability to make a sound in his or her native language. For instance, a lot of people in my area would need much training to pronounce Annna's name. They would pronounce "observation" as "awbservation".
I HATE Shaw!!!!!!!!! [2002-04-04 20:52:05] shadowyfigure
G.B.S--atleast they got the last two initials right!! OH DO I HATE HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAATE SHAW! Pygmalion's Epilogue is so infuriating! WIT!!!!!?? HA HA! He's not funny, he's a jerk! Oh yes, he didn't believe in GOD, he thought he was God. Once he rode a bicycle with a broken leg and then injured the other leg! WHAT AN IDIOT! That whole deal about him falling in love Mrs. Patrick Campbell IS the decoder for that heap of rubbish end he DARES to call an Epilogue! What a loser........
FIN.
THIS [2005-11-07 22:18:00] Wolf. J. Flywheel
Shaw was flawed, but he admitted it, he was a risktaker, and he was active. He was silly, immature and often very foolish. BUT he was not a fool, behind his wit lay meaning and behind than meaning was his view, many cant see it, in fact i cant, but he was complex and alas people only read the lines not between them.
I'm indifferent to GB Shaw [2006-06-14 17:29:21] Akbar X M
Interesting conversation. Just a note, however, where I live and grew up there is no difference in the pronunciation of the words wade and weighed. I can't say I've ever noted a difference anyplace else either. I'm not sure, either, what is meant by "degenerate" although I suspect its meant as an arch dig at those who speak differently than yourself.
By the way, Isn't GB Shaw dead? Such spleen about someone who apparently is Thankfully dead.
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